TEXT VERSION OF herbertpsychiatry.com, Herbert Psychiatry, LLC.
Last updated: March 26, 2025
NOTE: This document contains the content from the following pages:
1) HOME
2) ABOUT
3) SERVICES
4) GROUP THERAPY
5) COMMUNITY
6) FEES
7) CONTACT
8) FAQ
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WEBSITE TEXT BY PAGE:
1) HOME
Herbert Psychiatry, LLC logo [contains a stylized capital letter H and capital letter P with a curved pattern of dots fading in the background behind the letter P and the words science and art in the header]
Whole Person Psychiatry and Therapy for Adults in Northern Virginia [website tagline]
You are not your diagnosis. You are not your symptoms. You are your values. You are your strengths. [banner text on Home page]
Welcoming new patients. Please leave a voicemail at 571-303-9019 to schedule a free phone call. [banner text on Home page]
Let’s make 2025 your year of personalized treatment for anxiety, depression, stress and life transitions. [banner text on Home page]
WHAT WE DO TOGETHER
Looking for “a psychiatrist near me” can be difficult. Herbert Psychiatry, LLC is local for Loudoun and Fairfax counties in Northern Virginia. But our goal is to be more than just close by and accessible.
Whether you need a board-certified psychiatrist for psychiatric medicine appointments, or for psychotherapy sessions, know that our patients receive individualized and comprehensive mental health treatment. Dr. Mariel Herbert uses her medical and psychological expertise in every appointment.
Dr. Herbert values a good fit and a strong doctor-patient relationship. And she does not artificially separate follow-up appointments into “medication management” or “therapy.”
You are a whole person, and you deserve to work with a doctor who practices whole psychiatry.
WHO WE ARE
Herbert Psychiatry is an outpatient psychiatry practice dedicated to medical and mental health care for adults.
We are:
-culturally sensitive.
-trauma informed.
-neurodiversity friendly.
-identity affirming.
Dr. Herbert believes in the science and art of medicine–and she might be a good fit for you if:
-Past mental health experiences or medical appointments seemed too short or superficial.
-You want to work on your psychiatric, therapy, and wellness treatments with one person.
-You need a doctor who validates you, a doctor who cares about who you are and what is important to you.
-You require flexibility: both in-person appointments (Wednesdays) and virtual appointments the rest of the week, evenings, and weekends.
-You prefer a collaborative approach that is warm and practical.
HOW WE BEGIN
1. The first few appointments help us understand our struggles. The consultation phase starts with the therapeutic alliance and a workable treatment plan for psychiatric medicine and individual psychotherapy.
2. Psychotherapy (therapy) is more than just venting or validation. Therapy offers a framework for knowing ourselves and how to work through our difficulties. Therapy connects the past to the present, so we can successfully move forward.
3. We all have psychological tools that we use to survive. And our skills help us live meaningful lives. No matter where we are—or how old we are—we can reassess our skills and learn healthier ways of being in the world.
INDIVIDUAL PSYCHOTHERAPY
Therapy is part of general psychiatric treatment and can augment a psychiatric medication plan. However, everyone is different and has different needs. Dr. Herbert will work with you to develop a therapy treatment plan that is tailored to what you need. Psychotherapy can be short- or long-term and be focused or more general.
PSYCHIATRIC MEDICINE
Psychiatry integrates physical health with mental and emotional wellness. It is a branch of medicine that considers the causes of our symptoms, like anxiety, depression, and mood disorders. These causes can be biological, psychological, and interpersonal or relational.
Our life experiences shape who we are. These experiences impact our physical and psychological health. Medical interventions may include working on overall health, sleep quality, activity level, and nutrition, as well as using psychiatric medications and psychotherapy.
LOCATION
19420 Golf Vista Plaza Suite 350, Lansdowne, VA 20176
GPS Note: May come up as Leesburg.
Accessibility: Free parking lot, elevator, and a quiet waiting room.
CONTACT
Need additional assistance?
Please contact us:
Phone 571-303-9019
Email herbert@herbertpsychiatry.com
HOURS BY APPOINTMENT
Wednesday: 9 am to 6 pm appointments available in the office.
Monday-Friday: telehealth*
Saturday-Sunday: telehealth*
*We also have late afternoon & evening availability for telehealth appointments.
SOCIAL ACCOUNTS
Instagram [Instagram page link on Home page]
LinkedIn [LinkedIn page link on Home page]
2) ABOUT
[Portrait photograph of Dr. Mariel Herbert who is a pale woman with brown hair and some gray hair, brown eyes; she is wearing a white blouse and mulberry colored blazer and is smiling slightly.]
PERSONALIZED PSYCHIATRY AND THERAPY
Dr. Mariel Herbert has over a decade of experience as a psychiatrist. Her priority is integrative psychiatric care. She uses a dynamic psychiatric evaluation and treatment plan that includes:
-general health and wellness
-coordination of care with primary care physicians and other specialists
-and focused therapy interventions.
Dr. Herbert’s process involves getting to know her patients as people with their individual struggles and strengths.
As a medical doctor, her foundation is established science and evidence-based medicine.
And, as a trained psychotherapist, she understands our lifelong development and relationship needs, how to work on psychological and emotional skills, and the importance of creating purpose and meaning in our own lives.
For effective psychiatric care, Dr. Herbert values:
-a strong doctor-patient alliance
-and a good fit.
LICENSES AND TRAINING
Active medical licenses in California, Maryland, and Virginia.
Medical Degree: Doctor of Medicine (MD).
Psychiatry Residency Program: The University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt (2012-2016).
Board Certifications: American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, National Board of Physicians and Surgeons.
Selected Certifications: Level 1 Testing, Empathy, Agenda-Setting, and Methods-Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, General Psychiatric Management for Borderline Personality Disorder.
Additional Psychotherapy Training: The Adult Psychoanalytic Fellowship at the Baltimore Washington Center for Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis (2015-2016), Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia; basic training in Schema Therapy, Mentalization-Based Treatment, and Transference-Focused Psychotherapy.
SIMPLIFIED SUMMARY
Dr. Herbert is a medical doctor. She is licensed in California, Maryland, and Virginia. She completed a Psychiatry Residency Program at the University of Maryland/Sheppard Pratt. Dr. Herbert also has specific mental health treatment training. Her training includes therapy for mental health conditions that can be difficult to treat.
3) SERVICES
YOU ARE A WHOLE PERSON. YOU DESERVE WHOLE PSYCHIATRY. [Services page heading]
Psychiatrists are trained to understand and treat many mental health diagnoses and difficulties.
At Herbert Psychiatry, we complete comprehensive and collaborative psychiatric evaluations. Dr. Mariel Herbert considers how your problems impact your actual life.
Together, we look at psychiatric conditions as interconnected symptoms. Each symptom exists along a continuum. And symptoms change across settings and personal experiences.
We observe your symptoms over time. This supports a diagnostic picture and treatment plan that are unique to you.
Some of the experiences and problems that we treat:
stress
overwhelm
anxiety
panic
fear
fight-flight-freeze response
uncertainty
intrusive thoughts
depression
hopelessness
helplessness
apathy
emptiness
grief
loss
intense negative emotions
loneliness
regret
guilt
shame
self-criticism
disconnectedness
dissociation
depersonalization
mood changes
restlessness
hyperactivity
impulsivity
lack of focus
poor quality sleep
anger
and more….
Dr. Herbert takes the time to understand your active symptoms in the context of who you are as a person. She will also coordinate care with your primary care physician and other specialists.
The therapy that Dr. Herbert offers is “top down” and “bottom up.” She integrates different therapy types with goal-directed skills.
Examples of skills-based goals are:
mental flexibility.
emotional resilience.
Therapy is not one-size-fits-all. Effective therapy interventions require a strong doctor-patient relationship. This starts with the very first appointment.
Dr. Herbert may consider psychiatric medications with you. She provides education about evidence-based medication options. And she reviews your health factors and medical concerns.
-Psychiatric Consultations.
-Psychiatric Treatment.
-Therapy and Skills.
TYPES OF THERAPY
Psychodynamic psychotherapy connects the past and present and develops insight into the self.
Cognitive therapies teach us we are not our thoughts. Thoughts are separate from emotions and behaviors. We can change how we think, feel, and act.
Existential therapy prioritizes our humanity. We respect autonomy and the need for purpose and meaning in our own lives.
Mindfulness works towards being in the present. Mindfulness is necessary for our engagement in the world. With compassion, we use our empathy skills to decrease suffering. When we help others or ourselves, we are practicing mindfulness and compassion.
GROUP PSYCHOTHERAPY
PSYCHOLOGICAL SKILLS & PEER SUPPORT
Boost your individual treatment with practical, skills-based programs.
Learn with like-minded peers in a small, supportive group.
Groups are facilitated by Dr. Herbert.
Two psychotherapy groups enrolling now for May 2025:
1. Physicians (MD/DO group)
2. Childfree & Childless Women (this is a “non-mom” group for those who identify as women)
Specific start dates will be updated on the Groups page when available. Please contact us for more information about groups.
4) GROUP THERAPY
GROUP THERAPY COMPLEMENTS INDIVIDUAL WELLNESS PLANS
Accepting new patients for both the Physicians (MD/DO) and Childfree & Childless Women therapy groups. Groups are currently virtual and open to Maryland and Virginia residents. Please contact us for details.
Group work is ideal for those looking for ongoing support and the gradual therapeutic deepening that is part of a shared experience. To optimize the value of group psychotherapy for each person, and to maintain group cohesion, we ask that each participant commit to attending 8+ group sessions.
Our therapy groups are self-referred. Dr. Herbert will also communicate with your outside therapist, doctor, or psychiatrist. This collaboration is so we can determine together how group therapy best fits with your current difficulties, diagnostic picture, and treatment plan.
Psychotherapy Group Fees:
Groups are charged per session. The 2025 fee for a group session is $60.
There is a one-time individual evaluation and orientation session: $300 (60-minute appointment). In the individual appointment we review your mental health history, your current mental health treatment plan, including your goals for group therapy.
Our Foundation
Our groups are grounded in compassionate curiosity, self-direction, and working towards purpose in life. A flexible and dynamic skills practice is integrated into group sessions.
Groups Starting May 2025
Each group session is 75 minutes to allow for introductions and questions, as well as a full hour of discussion and skills practice.
1. Physicians (MD/DO) Group: As physicians it is easy for us to just keep going–to be so busy with work and have our default experience be one of self-sacrifice. We may be well into burnout before we even notice! This confidential peer group allows for an authentic shared experience and working towards wellness. We acknowledge the ongoing sociocultural contributors to chronic stress, overwhelm, and the physical and emotional symptoms of exhaustion, depression, and anxiety. Tentative day/time: 7:30 PM on Wednesdays
2. Childfree & Childless Women’s Group: This group is open to all people who identify as women and who do not have children. If you consider yourself “childless” and/or “childfree,” you are welcome to join us. Your perspective is valid. And your voice matters. This is a group for respectful telling and processing of similar and diverse experiences. We value and appreciate how you live as a woman without children in this world. Tentative day/time: 7:00 PM on Tuesdays
Group start dates to be determined once we have 5-10 people enrolled per group. All participants will be notified in advance of the start date for confirmation.
SIMPLIFIED SUMMARY
Two telehealth psychotherapy groups are starting in May 2025. These groups are 1) Physicians (MD/DO), and 2) Childfree/Childless Women. Group start dates will be decided when 5-10 people have enrolled in a group. Each group will meet weekly for 75 minutes. The group therapy fee is $60 per session. Please contact us for more information.
5) COMMUNITY
Our Mission
Herbert Psychiatry is dedicated to serving our community in Northern Virginia.
Our mission is to promote integrated, person-centered mental health care.
We evaluate and treat people rather than just disease or disorders. Our goals are to support and to heal.
We believe in challenging mental health stigma through community engagement and education.
Virginia Areas Served
-Falls Church
-Vienna
-Tysons Corner
-McLean
-Oakton
-Great Falls
-Reston
-Herndon
-Sterling
-Dulles
-South Riding
-Brambleton
-Ashburn
-Lansdowne
-Leesburg
-Purcellville
-and more.
Our Lansdowne office is close to Leesburg Pike (VA 7). We also offer telehealth appointments 7 days a week.
6) FEES
HERBERT PSYCHIATRY DOES NOT PARTICIPATE IN INSURANCE.
Patients are billed directly on the day of service (credit card). Superbills provided upon request. Thank you.
To focus on personalized treatment plans and direct patient care, Dr. Herbert is out of network and does not take any insurance at this time. This includes commercial/private insurance plans, as well as Medicaid and Medicare.
If you are an adult (18 years or older) looking for psychiatric care and have a PPO plan, you may have usable out-of-network benefits. Dr. Herbert can provide you with a superbill to give to your health insurance plan for potential reimbursement. Please contact your health insurance plan before meeting with Dr. Herbert, so that you know about your out-of-network reimbursement options.
Preferred Provider Organization is an insurance plan that is not Medicaid or Medicare or an HMO.
Good Faith Estimates are provided to new patients. To learn more about this, please see the CMS website. [Outside hyperlink on page to the CMS.gov website, cms.gov/medical-bill-rights/help/guides/good-faith-estimate]
2025 FEES FOR INDIVIDUAL APPOINTMENTS
Fees are based on appointment type and time. All appointments include some amount of psychiatric evaluation and management and treatment planning.
90-minute initial psychiatric evaluation: $425.00. This is the first appointment fee. The minimum amount of face-to-face time is 60 minutes with 90 minutes being the preferred amount of time. This fee also includes 1+ hours of administrative time outside of the appointment. Administrative time encompasses documentation of the following: life and health history, past and active psychiatric symptoms and problems, a working diagnosis or diagnostic formulation, any written summary or consultation note or letter to another physician, scoring and interpreting self-report measures or scales, reviewing outside medical records or laboratory reports, and any coordination of care or information gathering from other sources–such as doctors, therapists, pharmacists, or family members.
30-minute follow-up appointment: $225.00. This appointment is for psychiatric evaluation/consultation, psychiatric medical and psychological treatment. This includes psychiatric medication management and psychotherapy. The face-to-face time for this appointment type is usually 25 minutes.
60-minute follow-up appointment: $275.00. This appointment is also for psychiatric evaluation/consultation, psychiatric medical and psychological treatment—may include psychiatric medication management and/or psychotherapy. The face-to-face time for this appointment type is usually 50 minutes. Most appointments that include focused or ongoing psychotherapy will be this appointment type.
This page will update promptly with any fee additions or changes. Please inform us of any unanticipated charges or fees on your account. Refer to the Group Therapy page for information about Group Therapy appointment fees.
SIMPLIFIED SUMMARY
Herbert Psychiatry does not take insurance, including Medicaid or Medicare. Appointments are charged on the patient’s credit card on the day of the appointment. Superbills are for patients to give to their PPO insurance for out-of-network reimbursement. Patients can ask us for superbills. The current appointment fees are determined by appointment type and time. The fees are $425 for the first appointment (60-90 minutes face-to-face time), $225 for 30-minute follow-up appointments (25 minutes face-to-face time), and $275 for 60-minute follow-up appointments (50 minutes face-to-face time). Please contact us with questions.
7) CONTACT
EMAIL: herbert@herbertpsychiatry.com
PHONE: 571-303-9019
ADDRESS: 19420 Golf Vista Plaza Suite 350, Lansdowne, VA 20176
Our office is on the third floor to the right of the elevator.
GET IN TOUCH
Call us to schedule a complimentary 10-minute screening or to learn more about Herbert Psychiatry.
Voicemail: Please leave your full name, contact number, and reason for your call. Voicemail messages are responded to within 48 business hours.
Patient Portal: Current patients may log in to the patient portal for secure messaging.
Emergencies: Herbert Psychiatry does not provide emergency services. If you are experiencing an emergency, including a medical or psychiatric emergency, please immediately call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. The new crisis lifeline phone number is 988.
Psychiatric Medication Refills: Medications are electronically sent to patient pharmacies during scheduled appointments. Please check with your pharmacy first about any medication issue before leaving a message.
Forms and Paperwork: Initial appointments are scheduled and confirmed once all intake forms have been completed and signed. Thank you.
8) FAQ
Q: What kind of mental health provider are you?
A: Dr. Mariel Herbert has a Doctor of Medicine degree (MD) and is a board-certified psychiatrist. She is trained in medicine, psychiatry, and psychotherapy.
Q: What does “board-certified” mean?
A: A board-certified psychiatrist is a physician with a medical doctorate who completed a Psychiatry residency program and standardized testing in order to be certified with the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (ABPN). Board certification requires regular examinations and continued education for ongoing maintenance of certification.
Q: What’s the difference between a psychiatrist, nurse practitioner, psychologist, and/or other therapist?
A: A psychiatrist is a physician who has completed medical school (4-year program after college/undergraduate degree) and has an MD or DO graduate doctoral degree. Psychiatry residency training for psychiatrists who are qualified to work with adult patients is an additional 4 years after medical school. Nurse practitioners have completed nursing degrees and a Master’s level program (NP). Psychologists have completed therapy- or research-oriented doctoral degrees (PsyD or PhD). Other therapy degrees may include specific certificates or Master’s level programs (like LCSW, clinical social work).
Q: What kind of psychiatry do you do? What patients do you see? What age range of patients? Do you see patients younger than 18?
A: Dr. Herbert is a general adult psychiatrist. She tends to work with adults between the ages of 20 and 60 years of age (estimated range). Younger people can see a board-certified Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist (CAP). Older patients (including those with Medicare plans) may consider seeing a Geriatric Psychiatrist. These age-specialized psychiatrists have additional Fellowship level training. Dr. Herbert sees a wide range of patients, including those with anxiety and depression and other mood disorders. She also has experience in women’s mental health and developmental trauma. Dr. Herbert also works with creative people, artists and writers, adults who were formerly gifted children, and parents of gifted children.
Q: What kinds of psychiatric problems and conditions do you treat?
A: We primarily treat adults with anxiety, depression, life stressors and transitions, trauma history, mood and thought disorders. As an office-based psychiatry practice, we see individuals who are able to safely participate in outpatient treatment and do not need a higher level of psychiatric care.
Q: Do you prescribe psychiatric medications? What about controlled/scheduled substances?
A: Yes, we may recommend and/or prescribe psychiatric medications. In general, Dr. Herbert works with individuals to choose medications that provide the most benefit over time, and the fewest possible side effects. She occasionally prescribes controlled medications, such as stimulant medications or benzodiazepines, at the lowest effective doses and with routine monitoring for safety and effectiveness. As much as possible, Dr. Herbert tries to decrease medication amounts and frequency of use. She has also helped patients taper off of controlled medications.
Q: Do you offer ketamine therapy or TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) or ECT (electroconvulsive therapy)?
A: As a small, hybrid outpatient psychiatry practice, we do not offer these treatments at Herbert Psychiatry. However, we are familiar with the indications and scientific evidence for these treatments. And we work with patients who need these treatments. Dr. Herbert can provide referrals and coordinate care with other physicians and treatment centers.
Q: Are you a substance use disorders program? Can you do detox or medically-assisted treatment?
A: No, Herbert Psychiatry is not an addictions or dual diagnosis program. We do not have substance/drug testing in the office. We do not offer medical detox or buprenorphine or methadone treatment at this time. We work with addiction and substance use problems as part of our general psychiatry practice. However, we recommend seeing an Addictions Psychiatrist for these specific treatments. If medical detox is necessary for health and safety reasons, the recommendation is that individuals participate in an inpatient or residential treatment program.
Q: Do you complete long-term disability, fitness for duty, or worker’s comp evaluations?
A: No, we do not complete these evaluations as a clinical practice focused on treatment. We may, during the course of treatment, work on short-term disability plans or other paperwork. If you are looking for any specific evaluations that involve the legal system, please find a Forensic Psychiatrist to work on this with you.
Q: What level of care do you offer? Do you have a day/partial program or intensive outpatient program?
A: Herbert Psychiatry is a general outpatient psychiatry practice for adult patients. We can offer some flexibility with scheduling and psychotherapy interventions, but we are not a PHP or IOP. If that higher level of care is needed, we recommend potential patients start there. We can work with patients who are “stepping down” from more intensive programs and needing regular outpatient psychiatric care.
Q: What if I need an urgent appointment?
A: Dr. Herbert tries to schedule new patient appointments within 1-2 weeks. If patient safety is a concern, then that is an emergency. For emergencies, immediate evaluation at the nearest emergency room/hospital is necessary. Emergency phone numbers: 911 and/or 988. 988 is the new number for the suicide and crisis lifeline. Dr. Herbert is available to coordinate care with emergency and/or inpatient physicians once patients are safe.
Current patients can let us know of more urgent needs by using the patient portal for secure messaging.
Q: How often do I need to schedule appointments?
A: This is an “it depends” answer. Most patients are seen for regular psychiatric evaluation and treatment, including psychotherapy. This means that they have weekly or bi-weekly (every other week) appointments. All patients are required to be seen at least once every three months in order to maintain an active treatment relationship. When individuals are doing well and do not need to be seen as frequently, then we discuss transferring their mental healthcare back to their primary care physician.
Q: I already have a psychiatrist and/or therapist. Can I see you, too?
A: In certain situations, yes you can. For those who are looking for a second opinion/psychiatric consult, Dr. Herbert can see you for 1-3 sessions and offer a diagnostic impression and treatment recommendations to your regular psychiatrist or primary care physician or gynecologist (OB-GYN). Dr. Herbert also coordinates care with outside therapists. Dr. Herbert may also be a member of your treatment team for psychiatric evaluation and treatment, psychiatric medication management, and/or a specific focus or form of therapy. The other therapist would continue working with the patient on another focus or therapy type.
Q: What is the first appointment like?
A: Before the first appointment, we will have a screening call (free). If we decide to schedule an appointment, we will pick a 90-minute block of time to review current problems and symptoms and discuss any relevant health information. You will be able to read and complete practice documents and health history forms before confirming the scheduled appointment. This first appointment is for gathering information and deciding on the best next steps together.
Q: I see you offer virtual/telehealth appointments. Do I have to be seen in person at the office?
A: Herbert Psychiatry is a hybrid mental health practice. This is for accessibility and regular psychiatric care. We see patients in the office and virtually. Our telehealth video appointments are part of our electronic medical record system. We ask that patients be seen in person for the first appointment. We do this to establish care and a strong therapeutic alliance.
Q: Your hours are listed as “by appointment” and include evenings/weekends. Are there specific times open? Can I schedule online?
A: For security purposes, we ask that new patients call us to schedule. This is why we do not have a scheduling form on the website. This also allows us to have a brief conversation about your needs and goals before you commit to an intake appointment with Dr. Herbert.
Q: Do you take insurance? What do you charge?
A: We are not in network with any insurance plans. We are unable to see Medicaid or Medicare patients. Please see the “Fees” page for more information.
Q: You do not take insurance. Do you offer a sliding scale?
A: We do not have a sliding scale at this time. We may be able to offer a payment plan if a current patient’s financial situation changes. Before scheduling with us, we recommend that potential patients consider their budget, PPO insurance, and out-of-network benefits.
Q: What is your no-show or late cancellation policy?
A: Appointments need to be cancelled at least 48 business hours before the start time. We charge late cancellations the regular appointment fee. This charge is on the day of the originally scheduled appointment. We try to reschedule with you whenever possible. We also do not double book patient appointments. Thank you.
Q: Do you offer treatment in languages other than English? A: Our paperwork, psychiatry and therapy appointments, are in English. Dr. Herbert is fluent in English and is not fluent in other languages.
Q: How do you handle patient confidentiality?
A: Mental health information is sensitive. We maintain a secure electronic medical record. Some health information is routinely shared between treating physicians. This is for continuity of care (like health problems and treatment recommendations). We discuss any health information that is disclosed outside of routine patient care. Patients sign consent forms for family members, outside physicians or therapists. In potential emergency situations, doctor-patient confidentiality is secondary to safety. An emergency situation is when there may be risk of imminent harm to self or to others. In emergencies, patient health information may be shared to establish safety first.
Q: How are you different from other psychiatrists?
A: In several important ways, Dr. Herbert is not different from other psychiatrists. Her training includes medical school, a Psychiatry residency program, and board certification. She has learned about health, mental illness, psychiatric diagnoses and treatments, and psychotherapy. Her approach is her own, though, and she enjoys working collaboratively with patients. She does not just focus on “medication management” or only do one type of psychotherapy. Please see the About and Services pages for more details.
Q: You answered a lot of questions, but I still need more information OR I don’t see my question here; how do I contact you?
A: Please call and leave us a message at 571-303-9019. Dr. Herbert responds to voicemails within 48 business hours. The best way to get more information is to have a brief conversation directly with Dr. Herbert.
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